Jiang Zemin and Wallace chatted and laughed together [Full Version]

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Jiang Zemin: First, I'd like to say a few words in English. Time flies. We first met in 1986 when I was the mayor of Shanghai. I hope to convey my best wishes to the American people through your program.

Mike Wallace: Could you briefly summarize the current state of Sino-US relations?

Jiang Zemin: I think Sino-US relations are generally good. Of course, like natural phenomena, there are ups and downs, sometimes cloudy, sometimes even overcast, but sometimes the clouds clear. I believe that as we approach the next century, everyone shares a good wish for our two countries' relations to move towards a constructive strategic partnership.

Mike Wallace: Gore and Bush will likely become President of the United States while you are still President. If they are watching this program, would you like to share your views on how US-China relations will develop?

Jiang Zemin: I have read the campaign platforms and propaganda of both parties, but I don't know them as well as you do. However, I believe that either candidate, once elected, should further improve the friendly relations between China and the United States from the perspective of the strategic interests of the entire world. Some people have told me not to believe what certain individuals say about being unfriendly to China, because those were just campaign rhetoric; once elected, they will be friendly towards China. I hope so.

Mike Wallace: Recently, a Chinese newspaper portrayed the United States as a threat to world peace. Do you really believe the United States poses a threat to world peace?

Jiang Zemin: Today, in speaking with you, I hope to give the American people a message that promotes our mutual friendship and understanding. Therefore, I don't like to use too many harsh words in our conversation. As I just made it clear, your economy is so developed, your science and technology are so advanced, so you have a relatively advantageous position, and often your attitude may not be able to adopt a completely equal stance towards all other countries. Frankly speaking, because of its relatively developed economic and technological strength, the United States often overestimates itself. What I mean is that the US government probably still has this hegemonic and power-politics tinge.

Mike Wallace: Are you implying that the United States looks down on China? Is our position in Asia too prominent?

Jiang Zemin: I'm not just saying you're targeting China specifically. China is a country with 5,000 years of history and culture, and we have over 1.2 billion people. Through more than 20 years of reform and opening up, China has built a considerable economic foundation, so I'm afraid you shouldn't underestimate China.

Mike Wallace: Do you still believe that the United States intentionally bombed the Chinese embassy in Belgrade?

Jiang Zemin: I can only say the opposite to you. The United States is a highly technologically advanced country, so to this day, some of the US explanations that it was a "mistake" are still unconvincing.

Mike Wallace: What benefit did the United States gain from bombing the Chinese embassy in Yugoslavia?

Jiang Zemin: That's a question. Why is it that with such advanced technology, such a sophisticated military command system, and such advanced radio communication equipment, and with our embassy's markings so clear, we arrived at this conclusion? That remains a question. But we still maintain a forward-looking attitude, so that our two countries can enter the 21st century together.

Mike Wallace: The CIA and the Pentagon make mistakes, stupid mistakes. It was simply a mistake; the Americans have no doubt about that. Why did we bomb the Chinese embassy?

Jiang Zemin: Clinton apologized to me many times. However, I told Clinton many times that after the bombing of the Yugoslav embassy, more than 1.2 billion of us were outraged. Although we have such a large population, our lives, the lives of each individual, are still very precious. Three people sacrificed their lives. So I told him, guiding the anger of more than 1.2 billion people onto a rational track is no easy task. Mainly because you represent the Americans, and I represent the Chinese; it is probably very difficult for us to reach a completely identical understanding on this issue.

Mike Wallace: If the United States develops a national missile defense system, will China respond by developing more missiles?

Jiang Zemin: We oppose your development of a national missile defense system and a theater missile defense system. This attitude is very clear. China's consideration is that we will never allow our national security interests to be harmed. For China, increasing our defense capabilities is a very normal thing. We believe that the United States' insistence on developing a national missile defense system and a theater missile defense system is detrimental to world peace. It creates an atmosphere in the world where people feel that not everyone is engaged in the common cause of peace and development. This naturally makes us feel threatened.

Mike Wallace: If the United States insists on developing a national missile defense system and a theater missile defense system, will China increase its nuclear forces?

Jiang Zemin: We are a nuclear-armed country; we are one of the five permanent members of the Security Council. However, we have always maintained a minimum number of nuclear weapons, and we have declared that we will absolutely not be the first to use nuclear weapons.

Mike Wallace: You just mentioned hoping to improve US-China relations. So how do you want to improve relations with the United States?

Jiang Zemin: I think the most important thing on this point is that we hope our leaders will have a broad and far-sighted perspective. In 1993, when I met with Clinton, I quoted the Chinese poem, "To see a thousand miles further, climb one more story," which is about having a broad and far-sighted perspective. When Gore came, I also told him a poem by Wang Anshi, the prime minister of the Song Dynasty: "I am not afraid of the

floating clouds obscuring my view, for I stand at the highest peak." Mike Wallace: Deng Xiaoping once told you, "I hope you are the core of this leadership team," and your reply at the time was: I feel like I'm walking on thin ice. You must have been considering whether you were ready to take on this responsibility?

Jiang Zemin: Today I can tell you frankly, when I came to Beijing from being the secretary of the Shanghai Municipal Party Committee, I had absolutely no preparation to be the leader of all of China. I hoped to consider someone more capable and suitable than myself. In the end, our older generation of leaders, including Deng Xiaoping, thought I was suitable, and I was formally elected by the Central Committee. In the end, I could only "devote myself to the cause until my dying breath."

Mike Wallace: One of the reasons for your success is what people call "a needle hidden in cotton," is that the secret to your success?

Jiang Zemin: In China, "a needle hidden in cotton" is a very positive compliment. Previous leaders, like Deng Xiaoping, have been described in this way. I dare not compare myself to him. But I can say this: I am a rather decisive person, that's for sure. Eleven years have passed since I became General Secretary, and I have always held onto one belief: I must always do my best for our country and our motherland. My hard work may have earned me the kind of praise you've given me.

Mike Wallace: You now hold the lives of 1.3 billion people in your hands, or one-fifth of the world's population—that's incredible.

Jiang Zemin: We have about 50,000 new babies born every day, nearly 20 million a year, and this is under strict family planning policies, yet we still have such a high growth rate. So I do often think about how to ensure that our 1.2 billion people live happily and that their standard of living continues to improve; it's very difficult.

Mike Wallace: How are China's national leaders chosen?

Jiang Zemin: The electoral system in the United States and China are not entirely the same. Because our historical traditions, cultural levels, economic development levels, and general education levels are not entirely the same, each country's electoral system must be determined according to its own circumstances. The leadership of the Communist Party of China is good, but legally speaking, the Communist Party only makes suggestions; the final decision rests with the National People's Congress. All leaders of the State Council and all ministers are approved by the National People's Congress, and the State Council is responsible for day-to-day affairs. The highest authority within the Communist Party is the National Congress, which elects the Central Committee, and the Central Committee elects the Politburo. Our Politburo Standing Committee meets every week in a completely democratic atmosphere, and we frequently consult with the leaders of all democratic parties on national affairs.

Mike Wallace: In the United States, several parties compete to represent the interests of the majority. Why is this unimaginable in China?

Jiang Zemin: Your members of the House of Representatives and the Senate have asked me this question many times, and I have given them detailed answers. First of all, China is not just one Communist Party; there are eight democratic parties. Your members ask, who is the opposition party? I say, there isn't one. I told you that your insistence on having an opposition party shows you haven't properly studied Chinese history. You're applying American values to the entire world, imagining every corner should operate according to the American political system—this is extremely unwise. Frankly, we do have significant differences in values. Americans often use their logic to infer the politics and situations of other countries. Our values have always valued a strong collective and mutual cooperation. The mission of the Communist Party of China is to serve the people, and in doing so, we must gain their trust. After decades of struggle and a tortuous path since the founding of the People's Republic of China, Deng Xiaoping's opening-up policy has been very successful; we now call it socialism with Chinese characteristics. However, the West often hopes we become capitalist, which would make the world too monotonous. I believe the world should be diverse and vibrant. We must learn from all advanced Western ideas and cultures, including scientific, technological, and economic experiences. Of course, this must be combined with our national conditions. It is precisely by adhering to this principle that we have achieved considerable success over the past few decades.

Mike Wallace: You once said that the news should be the mouthpiece of the Party, and you and Mao Zedong both said that newspapers should be managed by politicians.

Jiang Zemin: I think that every country and every party has its own news publications to promote their views. We have about two thousand television stations nationwide, more than two thousand local newspapers, more than eight thousand magazines, and more than one hundred thousand new books published every year. Mao Zedong also advocated "letting a hundred flowers bloom and a hundred schools of thought contend" in the cultural and artistic fields. Of course, we have also made "leftist" mistakes in a certain historical period, but I think we now respect this policy.

Mike Wallace: Four years ago, you visited the People's Daily, a very important newspaper in China, and you told them that even an article, even a single wrong sentence, could cause political instability in the country. Does the news have that much power?

Jiang Zemin: I visited the People's Daily four years ago, but I don't think that was exactly what I said. I'm just pointing out this issue: in such a large country as ours, with over 1.2 billion people, the direction of the news is indeed very important. Whether it's the Chinese press or the Western press, I think one point is crucial: I respect the views and opinions of all journalists, but the facts cannot be distorted. The Chinese people pay great attention to the news, especially our *People's Daily*. If it reports a fact incorrectly, people will believe it. Unlike your country, where you report whatever you want, it's different from our situation. You can report a news story that isn't factual and it doesn't matter. For example, I'm still talking to you in Beidaihe, but I've already seen overseas newspapers saying I've arrived in Dalian. If that were true, we wouldn't be talking here today.

Mike Wallace: One of your most important responsibilities is Chairman of the Central Military Commission. You are very strict with the military, is that right?

Jiang Zemin: I've unknowingly served on the Central Military Commission for almost 11 years now. I believe I am still trusted by everyone in the military because I don't need to fire guns or fly planes; I should say I make strategic decisions.

Mike Wallace: Two years ago, you withdrew the military from production and business operations. Why did you make this decision?

Jiang Zemin: I believe that military involvement in business is a corrosive agent. Historical experience shows that in any country where the military engages in business, corruption inevitably occurs, ultimately leading to a decline in morale.

Mike Wallace: You mentioned the issue of corruption.

Jiang Zemin: When I came to work in the Central Committee, Deng Xiaoping told us that one of our most important tasks was to combat corruption. Corruption is a historical phenomenon, present in all times and places, but for us, our attitude has always been to resolutely oppose it, and I continue to address this issue to this day. I believe that corruption is very serious in some aspects, and I deeply hate it, but it seems very difficult to solve it all in one morning. I believe that anti-corruption can only be addressed gradually through the rule of law, public opinion, and education.

Mike Wallace: Why does China block some websites? What are you worried about people learning from the internet?

Jiang Zemin: I actually already touched on this issue when I talked to you about press freedom. But now, I think we also hope to learn a lot of beneficial knowledge from the internet, but we must also see that there is a lot of unhealthy content on the internet, especially pornography, gambling, and drugs, which are very harmful to our younger generation. We need to be selective in this regard, just as the United States is selective. In short, we hope to receive information from the internet that is beneficial to China's development, whether cultural, economic, or otherwise. But we hope to limit as much as possible what is detrimental to us. I think we should acknowledge that your technical level in this area is much higher than ours. I'm not referring to advanced technology and equipment, but rather to the fact that your media has very high standards in terms of news selection. For example, can you report the situation in China truthfully?

Mike Wallace: We can try, we can try.

Jiang Zemin: In reality, it's very difficult.

Mike Wallace: Four years ago, you convened a meeting of scholars and historians in Beidaihe to discuss issues related to morality, which is also a problem we face in the West.

Jiang Zemin: Actually, we study this topic frequently. In any country, for thousands of years, especially in China, because of its long history, spiritual civilization has always been extremely important. High moral standards have always been highly valued. Deng Xiaoping's socialism with Chinese characteristics aims to make people rich, allowing some regions and some people to get rich first, and then achieve common prosperity. "Getting rich is glorious" is not capitalism. This year in Guangdong, I told them that you are now richer than other parts of China, better than the western provinces and cities, but you must "remember your roots after getting rich, and strive for further progress," you cannot stagnate. I think that material abundance coupled with moral and spiritual decline is a problem that all national leaders should address together.

Mike Wallace: You yourself have asked people to resist the influence of decadent Western ideas. What exactly are you referring to as decadent?

Jiang Zemin: American leaders, including former Presidents Bush and Carter, and the current President Clinton, are also very concerned about the moral decline of the younger generation.

Mike Wallace: Do you think the United States is more decadent than China? Are we exporting decadence to you?

Jiang Zemin: To put it simply, because our two countries have different historical traditions, lifestyles, religious beliefs, and many other differences, what you might not consider decadent could be perceived as decadent in China. Therefore, we must be selective, and I want to be very frank with you about this.

Mike Wallace: When you took over the top position, did you say God would bless you so that you could do the job? Who is your God?

Jiang Zemin: I do not trust God. I am an atheist, so I do not necessarily call on "my God!" But I believe that I need to rely on the support of the entire people for my work.

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